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"Poland and Hungary continue with the dismantling of democracy - very difficult for us"

WORLD: Ms.

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"Poland and Hungary continue with the dismantling of democracy - very difficult for us"

WORLD: Ms. Barley, where were you when you found out about the missile impact in Poland?

Katarina Barley: I was just in a press conference with 20 Brussels journalists and eight to ten MEPs from my group. And then the journalist next to me tapped me and showed me the story on his phone. This gave this discussion a different dimension.

But I have to say, it didn't start like this: "Oh my God, and it must have been the Russians. And what happens then?” But it was really like this: “Now we have to keep a cool head and see what really happened before we express ourselves here in any way or drive ourselves crazy.”

WORLD: MPs from all over Europe come together in Brussels. How did you perceive their reactions?

Barley: We have different nations and we all have different political leanings. Then there are those who cannibalize it immediately. At the moment, those on the far right, who are more pro-Russia, were rather calm.

And everyone agreed, no matter what it was, whether it was a Russian missile or a Ukrainian one for defense: it is clear that Russia attacked the Ukraine; so that we don't start looking somewhere else to blame. That could have been a technical error, a human one. But the fact is, it happened because Putin invaded Ukraine.

WORLD: That evening, when you didn't know anything yet, I went to bed with a bad feeling. Will a NATO alliance be declared? What does that mean for me, for my two children?

Barley: I think we all had that thought. Is this the start of World War III? That has concerned us all. And I was wondering, is this a test by Putin? Well, if that had been a Russian missile, like: How far can I go? That would have immediately raised the question for us: What to do now? But we had the first signals from the Polish government relatively quickly that things might be different.

But of course that thought is there. And that's why it's so important that both the federal government and the Americans and also, for example, Emmanuel Macron (France's President, ed.) say this again and again: NATO will not become a war party.

"7 Days, 7 Nights" is the political weekly with Frédéric Schwilden. Every Friday he welcomes a political guest to a slightly different weekly review. Subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Deezer, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or via RSS feed, among others.

WORLD: Is this currently the most dangerous political situation you have experienced so far? We had the Kosovo war, we had genocides in Rwanda - but the world has never been more on the brink than it has been lately, has it?

Barley: Emotionally, I feel the same as you. However, that also has to do with the fact that it's just damn close to us. And maybe that's something that opens our eyes. That there are so many really bad and also dangerous conflicts in the world that we don't really have on our radar.

For me, the only thing that comes close is the discussion about the Iraq war. Where we also had very heated discussions in Germany. What I give the government at the time and Gerhard Schröder credit for saying no. Because it turned out that this alleged evidence from America (that Iraq's dictator Saddam Hussein possessed chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, ed.) did not exist.

WORLD: In recent years, the distance between some European countries has increased. The governments of Poland and Hungary have moved away from common European values. Will this conflict with Russia lead to inner-European unity again?

Barley: That's split. So on the one hand we all show great solidarity, also with Poland. We support the government in their efforts. Although in Poland you have to say that society also does a lot. So normal people take care of it, drive to the border with Ukraine and pick up people and bring them privately.

We are in solidarity with Poland and Hungary, and yet one has to say that both governments are continuing to dismantle democracy. And that is a very difficult situation for us, because we can of course see that these countries, especially Poland, are much more affected by their physical proximity (to Ukraine, ed.) and are also very burdened.

And on the other hand, they still can't make their judiciary totally dependent and slowly buy up their media landscape as a government. We have to find a balance, but I think we can manage that quite well. Of course they portray it differently. Of course they want to say now: Hey, it's war and now you have to give us everything, everything, turn a blind eye to what we're doing.

But we say: you get everything you need for the refugees, and you get military support. But you still have to make your judiciary independent again and make your media landscape more plural again.

WORLD: Is there a rethinking among the government representatives of Poland or Hungary?

Barley: No, I don't see that at all. This rethinking, which we have seen in the meantime, is that this block of Poland and Hungary, which was also a blockade block, has been split up a bit. The fact that Viktor Orbán (Hungary's head of government, ed.) did not support the sanctions against Russia was not well received in Poland - not even among the Polish population.

And there was hope at times: maybe Poland would turn its back on Viktor Orbán a bit. That is ultimately not the case. They still don't think it's good, but they form an alliance of convenience. And now, with Italy, we also have a government that thinks Viktor Orbán is great and supports him within the European Union. The problem is getting bigger rather than smaller.

"Kick-off Politics" is WELT's daily news podcast. The most important topic analyzed by WELT editors and the dates of the day. Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or directly via RSS feed.

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