"No one is forced to remove old heating and replace it with a heat pump"

WORLD: The Greens had big plans for 2023. But things aren't going well, and your party may even have to rejoin the opposition in Berlin's Rotes Rathaus. In Frankfurt/Main, Manuela Rottmann didn't even make it into the runoff. Have the Greens passed the zenith, Mr. Al-Wazir?

Tarek Al-Wazir: Sure, Frankfurt was painful. Otherwise I do not share your analysis. The former red Kassel will most likely get a green mayor this Sunday, where the SPD incumbent gave up after the first round of voting. In Darmstadt, Michael Kolmer came first in the runoff. If he wins, he would be the first green mayor in Germany to succeed a green mayor. In Hesse, according to the most recent survey, we are at 22 percent, ahead of the SPD. Crisis looks different.

WORLD: Why do you get better results in the state of Hesse than in a city state like Berlin, which should actually be a natural habitat for the Greens?

Al-Wazir: I see it the other way around: In Berlin, precisely because of our strength, we radiate too much pure teaching in some districts. In other parts of the city the opposite is the case. The graphics from the election night were symbolic: almost everything was green inside the S-Bahn ring, and almost everything outside was black. So we have to be careful that we don't only travel in our own milieu.

Of course we are elected for doing green politics. But we always have to explain what we are doing and why. And not only that: one step forward that stays can be worth more than two steps that make us lose the majority – with the result that things then go backwards. This is exactly what will happen in Berlin now. So: We have to go ahead, but remain accessible to the majority of the population.

WORLD: The question is how far you can still succeed, also nationwide. At 16 percent, the ARD Germany trend recently showed the worst value in a year.

Al-Wazir: Consider the general situation: Who would have thought two years ago that the Greens would be able to handle being the governing party within the party, supplying weapons to war zones and bringing back brown coal power plants from the reserve?

Nevertheless, our poll values ​​are better than our last election result in the federal government - in contrast to the SPD and FDP. And they just don't do well with it. The FDP in particular is now trying to sharpen its own profile with blockades. She reminds me of the barber in the Middle Ages who bled people and when they fainted he cried, "More blood!"

WORLD: What exactly do you accuse the FDP of?

Al-Wazir: Many laws are stuck because people block more than they decide. This imbalance was triggered by Christian Lindner's public demand for the tank discount in March 2022. This was the first time that a political conflict issue was no longer discussed internally, but the FDP pushed ahead and publicly dictated preconditions to the coalition partners.

That became the strategy: make as many rampages as possible in the hope that this will be perceived as a strength. As the election results have shown since then, that is not working. But instead of seeing that, the rioting is only intensified again. It ends up hurting everyone.

I do expect the traffic light to overcome its conflicts and get back to work. At some point you can no longer explain everything else to anyone, and it would benefit not only the country but also all coalition partners.

WORLD: With a view to the feasibility of the energy and heat transition, several Prime Ministers have criticized Robert Habeck. Is the Federal Minister of Economics overwhelmed, are the Greens overwhelming the country?

Al-Wazir: I like to remind you of the end of the lightbulb in 2009: there was a huge outcry, now everyone is happy that they are saving electricity with their LED lamps.

But to answer your question: Germany wants to be climate-neutral by 2045. This was decided by the grand coalition in 2021 as a consequence of the Federal Constitutional Court ruling, as well as the law on increasing CO₂ pricing. We must now ensure that the transformation takes place.

New heaters run for 25 to 30 years, so systems installed now will still be in operation in 2045. So new, purely fossil-based heating systems no longer make sense and, by the way, in view of the oil and gas prices, they are far too expensive in the long term, as we are now realizing.

The traffic light coalition agreement stipulates that from 2025 newly installed heating systems must be operated with at least 65 percent renewable energy. The emphasis is on "new" systems. Nobody is forced to remove a ten-year-old heating system and replace it with a heat pump. Gas and oil heaters can continue to run and can still be repaired. Nevertheless, panic is stirred up, according to the motto: "They'll rip out all your heaters."

That's not true, it's just fake news. Nevertheless, we have to take the fears seriously and socially cushion this transition with appropriate subsidies if there are additional costs. This is exactly what will now be important in the legislative process.

After criticizing the conversion plans for gas and oil heating systems, Economics Minister Habeck gives in. "When ramping up, craft services, production capacities, any form of transitional periods, hardship regulations, compromises are conceivable," said Habeck when asked by WELT-TV.

Source: WORLD

WORLD: But why does it always have to be faster? In the coalition agreement, 2025 was agreed, now suddenly there is talk of January 2024. The same applies to the coal phase-out in the east. After years of arduous negotiations, the compromise date was 2038. Now it's 2030. The heads of government of Saxony, Brandenburg and Saxony-Anhalt are outraged.

Al-Wazir: Lignite is one of the most harmful things to the environment. Their mining destroys the landscape particularly dramatically. If you complain about the aesthetics of wind turbines, I recommend a trip to the Garzweiler opencast mine. Getting out of coal as quickly as possible is therefore the right thing to do. In North Rhine-Westphalia, the date has been brought forward by eight years. And I am sure that this is also possible in the East.

But: Of course, the regions must be offered compensation. Perhaps it will be possible to rebuild there what used to be there, but was destroyed under black and yellow from 2009: a German solar industry.

WORLD: What do you think of the actions of the "last generation"?

Al-Wazir: With all understanding for the demands of the younger generation for quick action: This form of radicalization of the climate movement doesn't help anyone, especially not the climate. Making climate protection capable of winning a majority is only going to get harder. Sawing off a tree in front of the Chancellery to protest for more environmental protection has something almost Dadaistic about it.

WORLD: Change of subject: The “Vert Realos” group, which describes itself as a “resolute Realpolitiker within the Realo wing of the Greens”, has recently sharply criticized the government’s migration policy, warned of “false tolerance” and a higher repatriation rate and mandatory residence zones required by the EU borders. Your party leadership simply ignores the manifesto. Is that up to the sender?

Al-Wazir: The debate about repatriations does little to solve the basic problem. 80 to 90 percent of those arriving are from Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan. No one is sent back there for good reason.

But we still have to take on this huge task of taking in refugees as such and tackle it together, at federal, state and local level. And of course humanity and order belong together. Anyone who does not have a right to stay at the end of an asylum procedure that is as quick as possible must leave the country again.

WORLD: The Greens usually change their course when the power of the factual forces them to do so - not before. When Habeck demanded arms deliveries in Ukraine in May 2021, he was violently attacked by many Greens. Today that is the party line. What is missing is the debate about it. Is it less jerky?

Al-Wazir: That is not correct, we are having these debates. But with regard to arms deliveries, there would probably be a lot more internal discussions if we hadn't had the Bosnia-Kosovo experience. That is deep in the collective memory of the Greens. I remember the Bonn party conference in 1992, when Daniel Cohn-Bendit burst into tears because he foresaw the genocide in Bosnia and demanded in vain that we also act militarily.

I am absolutely in favor of us supporting Ukraine, with weapons and also with Leopard tanks. The country is fighting for its freedom and also for ours. Ukraine defends the idea of ​​self-determination and a liberal democracy against the right of brutality that Putin and Russia claim.

Nevertheless, some political debates were not serious enough for me. People are also being killed with our weapons, nobody should be under any illusions about that. These are of course members of a brutal attacking army, but not the sons of oligarchs, but mostly poor guys from the deep Russian provinces.

There is no black and white, no absolute good and absolute evil. We also bring guilt upon ourselves. These decisions are therefore very difficult. But if we didn't meet them, that guilt would be even greater.

"Kick-off Politics" is WELT's daily news podcast. The most important topic analyzed by WELT editors and the dates of the day. Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, among others, or directly via RSS feed.