“It would inevitably trigger an exodus of refugees from Afghanistan”

WORLD: Minister, Pakistan is currently struggling with the worst flooding in years. Why has your country been hit particularly hard this time?

Bilawal Bhutto Zardari: We are used to heavy monsoon rains and floods. But this time it's really particularly dramatic. One third of our country is under water, one seventh of the population is directly affected. That's about 33 million people, almost half of them children. The World Health Organization warns of the spread of serious diseases. We're also facing a food crisis because about four million hectares of arable land were destroyed by the flood. And just now the rating agency Moody's has downgraded Pakistan's credit rating. It all adds up to a multiple catastrophe that was ultimately triggered by climate change. And that's so unfair. Pakistan is responsible for only 0.8 percent of global CO₂ emissions, but we rank 8th among the countries most affected by climate change.

WORLD: How can Germany help?

Bhutto Zardari: Germany has already pledged 56 million euros in aid and during my visit to Berlin, Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock added another 10 million euros. We are very grateful to Germany and the Germans for that. With international aid, we want to make our economy more ecological through reconstruction and more resilient to future climate catastrophes. For this we also need help from the United Nations and the international financial institutions so that our debt situation improves again and more investments flow to Pakistan.

WORLD: Another problem that affects both Pakistan and Germany is the dramatic situation in Afghanistan. The Taliban show little willingness to accept human rights standards, and international aid is faltering. Pakistan has warned against completely isolating the Taliban. Do you think the Taliban will become more cooperative if you put less pressure on them?

Bhutto Zardari: It's not about less pressure or isolation. We advocate dialogue. We have to deal with reality, whether we like it or not. Unlike the rest of the world, we cannot simply turn away from this reality. After all, Afghanistan is on our doorstep. That is why we are conducting the dialogue with the Taliban and we also encourage the international community to have this dialogue. The winter is coming. The economic situation is dramatic. The worst forecasts suggest that 90 percent or more of the population will fall below the poverty line. That would inevitably trigger an exodus of refugees from Afghanistan. We should all be aware of that. In addition, such a scenario provides further cannon fodder for extremist terrorist organizations such as the Islamic State. This can have consequences for international security. All of these dangers are so serious that turning away from Afghanistan completely is out of the question. We must engage in dialogue to prevent disaster.

WORLD: But what about human rights?

Bhutto Zardari: If there is an economic collapse in Afghanistan, the situation with women's rights, for example, will not get better, but worse. Unfortunately, history shows that. In times of crisis, autocratic rulers tend to take even more rights away from the population. The terrible situation of the 1990s with executions, mutilations, flogging and all the other atrocities must not return. This is one of the reasons why we must prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. Dialogue is the right tool for this.

WORLD: Your mother Benazir Bhutto, the first female head of government in the Muslim world, fought for democracy and against the military dictatorship in Pakistan. Critics say the influence of the military in Pakistan is greater than ever. How do you see it?

Bhutto Zardari: You are right. My mother was also fighting against the military dictatorship when she was assassinated during the 2008 election campaign. In the period that followed, Pakistan made great democratic progress, for example in terms of the role of state institutions or our constitution and civil rights. Unfortunately, those who did not like these democratic advances found a perfect henchman in Imran Khan, the previous prime minister. It has eroded Pakistan's democratic institutions and reversed many democratic gains. But we have succeeded, for the first time in Pakistan's history, in having a head of government removed not by military intervention, or by a court decision, assassination or execution, but peacefully and constitutionally by a vote of no confidence. This is a chance for other state institutions, which have long played controversial roles, to assume their constitutional role. That deserves full support.

WORLD: Pakistan is a special case in that it has always been an ally of the West, but has always maintained excellent relations with China. Her grandfather, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was instrumental in establishing diplomatic relations between Washington and Beijing in the 1970s. But can the authoritarian one-party state of China really be a partner for democracy?

Bhutto Zardari: For us, the relationship with China has always been an all-weather friendship. It held up in every position. We cooperate very closely, both diplomatically and economically, with mutual respect. At the same time, we have very positive relations with the West. You are right, Pakistan has provided important services in forging US-China relations. We believe that in today's polarized world, more cooperation is needed to solve common problems. Take the pandemic or the threat of climate change. It is so acute today that we can only deal with it if we work together. In this world, Pakistan would like to contribute to a rapprochement again, as idealistic as that may seem.