"I have serious doubts that Qatar is waiting for us as teachers"

All of Germany is discussing a Gulf state, which was still hoped for as a gas supplier in the spring, and German soccer fans are calling for a boycott of the World Cup in Qatar. There has been a downright hysteria about the World Cup venue. Nicolas Fromm is a political scientist at the Bundeswehr University in Hamburg with a research focus on the Arab Gulf States, especially Qatar. Fromm is considered the leading Qatar expert in Germany. He wrote the book "Qatar: Sand, Money and Games" and warns against improper dealings with the emirate.

WORLD: Was your book commissioned or why did you write it?

Nicolas Fromm: When I wrote my doctoral thesis on Qatar, I had to realize that the German-language publication situation was very sparse. There is hardly any reliable information about Qatar in German. Therefore, I have decided to write down my information and findings in an accessible form.

WORLD: So you don't get any money from Qatar? Or did Qatar influence you in any way?

Fromm: No. Anyone who has read the book knows that it cannot have been commissioned by Qatar as I am not defending the country for anything. I'm just more objective with him than many at the moment.

WORLD: First Robert Habeck was in Qatar and asked for gas, then Nancy Faeser came and asked that tourists be treated properly. No politician has ever made such an unusual request before a World Cup.

Fromm: Yes, that shows a great deal of distrust, but also a great deal of ignorance or insecurity in dealing with the region. It gives me food for thought to observe this uncertainty among people who should actually help shape the connection to Qatar constructively simply because of their office. It is therefore also an expression of the somewhat vague expectations that Qatar is currently confronted with internationally.

WORLD: Was it right to let Qatar host the World Cup?

Fromm: I don't want to make a general assessment of that, because ultimately it's about a discussion of the criteria according to which major international events should be awarded. Looking at Qatar, I see positive and negative aspects. Qatar has consistently sought international attention for years and submitted a good application, so that this year we can watch a World Cup in an Arab country for the first time. In view of the extremely widespread football fan culture in the Arab states, I think this is overdue, because international sport is not the property of western industrialized countries. Most of the points of criticism are known from the current debate, I am surprised that, especially in times of energy shortages and climate awareness, hardly any reference is made to the expected devastating ecological balance sheet of the 2022 World Cup.

WORLD: How is it that Qatar is in the pillory for so many things?

Fromm: For those involved in sports policy, it makes perfect sense to use Qatar as the "bad guy". Because Qatar represents everything that one rightly criticizes about international football from a fan perspective. That you buy up big clubs, that you ensure a complete escalation of the transfer fees and also a detachment from the local fan base towards a clear international market orientation. Qatar is not alone in this, but plays its role very consistently. However, clubs like FC Bayern Munich have certainly played an equally large part in this development as the Emir of Qatar.

WORLD: So you understand the Bundesliga fans who want Germany to boycott the World Cup?

Fromm: I understand that, but I don't think it's politically appropriate at all.

WORLD: Why?

Fromm: First, Qatar is a western ally and second, a country that is very specifically important and relevant to us, which is hardly communicated. Qatar diplomatically represents German interests in Afghanistan, it forms a bridge to many actors with whom Germany has no contacts of its own. Apart from the question of energy supply, there are many situations in which we really need this country, which is why it is strange how impatiently criticism of the World Cup is currently being voiced by the federal government. To punish Qatar now of all times for long-known characteristics would be an expression of great naivety and inconsistency, after all we work very closely every day with autocratic regimes in unfree countries without being in the least disturbed by it. German companies made considerable money from the preparations for the World Cup.

WORLD: Are the harsh judgments about Qatar also due to the fact that people know too little about the country?

Fromm: We really know very little about each other. In the past, both sides have made too little effort to enter into a genuine exchange. There has always only been economic exchange, the populations of Europe and the Gulf region have remained quite alien to each other. That is of course also up to us, because there are some strong reservations about the rich Gulf States. They are often portrayed as evil incarnate, which isn't helpful when you're at their door two days later wanting to buy gas or oil.

WORLD: Qatar is still a very young country, younger than Lothar Matthäus and Jürgen Klinsmann. It was founded in 1971. Does Qatar still have a lot to learn?

Fromm: Of course. I have only big doubts that they are waiting for us as teachers, you get knowledge and inspiration from all over the world. Qatar learns every day. They do many projects for the first time. They are inevitably more risk-averse and willing to constantly adapt and improve.

WORLD: The core of many critics are the lack of human rights in Qatar. While China and Russia have slipped through on this issue in recent years, the people at Qatar are now saying: stop, that's enough. Why is that?

Fromm: When it comes to Qatar, many still have the opinion that one can feel superior to this country and its inhabitants. First of all, the country is very small and so, in the eyes of many, it should follow the pattern we are giving them. Second, Arab societies are often perceived as backward in general and are supposed to catch up with our modern age, so to speak. I think this colonial-tinged way of thinking is dangerous, because you have false expectations and sooner or later it will lead to conflicts.

WORLD: Recruited guest workers are said to have died on World Cup construction sites. The numbers are in the thousands. The emir promised reforms, but they were hardly implemented.

Fromm: Yes, yes, they were. Some things have improved significantly, also as a reaction to international pressure. Despite this, most workers continue to live in mass accommodation, sometimes under difficult conditions. However, there is now a nationwide minimum wage, which is low but has just been increased. Contact points have been created where workers who have become victims of exploitation can report. The difficulties lie in applying the laws across the board. For example, if you are a domestic worker and cannot leave the house at all without being beaten by your employer, then in fact you cannot go to the police. At this point I would also like to point out that there are also cases like this in Germany, Austria or Sweden and that cases of human trafficking and exploitation are also the order of the day in our societies, for example in the context of prostitution.

WORLD: Do you know the Cards of Qatar? This is a quartet game with dead workers.

Fromm: No, I don't know that. If the controls and the training of the workers were better, there would certainly be fewer serious accidents, but such structures cannot be changed overnight. As far as I know, the harshest critics refer to past cases, so the situation appears to have improved on this point as well. I would be interested to know whether fewer people were actually injured on the World Cup construction sites managed by German construction companies than the Qatari average, because the responsibility for the security problems lies not only with the state, but also with the international companies involved. Unfortunately, there are no fundamentally reliable figures here.

WORLD: Eight World Cup stadiums in such a small country. How sustainable is that?

Fromm: That's a point where I immediately join the criticism. Ecologically, this World Cup will be a catastrophe. Everyone will arrive by plane, the local infrastructure is still incredibly CO₂-intensive. I cannot judge whether the demolition of some stadiums will still have an environmental impact. All I can say is that from an ecological point of view, this will be a very yesterday's World Cup. But with us, folk festivals are also exempt from the Energy Saving Ordinance. Where you're supposed to have fun, the plug isn't pulled.

WORLD: One point in the list of allegations is: Qatar is the country of camel racing, not football. So what's with the football World Cup in the desert?

Fromm: It's this everyday racism that fails to recognize that the people in the Arab states are incredibly big football fans. Many follow the European leagues very closely, guaranteed more than camel races meet. This is not an artificial event. The league in Qatar is as old as the Bundesliga and the enthusiasm for football is great.

WORLD: Members of the LGBTQ community report being arrested and mistreated. Qatar's World Cup ambassador has said homosexuals are essentially brain damaged and in need of a cure.

Fromm: That is of course a completely intolerable statement and, at the moment, extremely clumsy for World Cup marketing. Unfortunately, this view is not only widespread in Qatar.

WORLD: What is the situation of homosexuals in Qatar from your point of view?

Fromm: As in many countries around the world, sexual minorities are not protected in Qatar, but criminalized. As a homosexual person, I can't live there openly, but I'm usually not actively persecuted if it's only in the private sphere, which is especially true for tourists. The difficulties of the people affected on site should not be downplayed, but in the regional context the situation is hardly surprising. We shouldn't forget one aspect of this discussion: the comprehensive ban on homosexuality was imported into the Arab world by the European colonial rulers. That's why you shouldn't hit it so hard on the subject.

WORLD: Can Qatar still make an image correction?

Fromm: That's hard to imagine at the moment. The German population has many reservations about the Arab world and the rich Gulf States. The fact that Doha is less influenced by tourists than Dubai and that the social norms that differ from Western Europe are even more visible makes it quite difficult for Qatar to free itself from the villain role, also against the background of the discourses critical of Islam in Europe. Nevertheless, I assume that the discussion will calm down after the World Cup at the latest and that Qatar will be treated less critically in other contexts, for example when it comes to gas supplies. This will also have a positive effect on Qatar's image among the population in the future.

WORLD: Are you going to Qatar and watching the World Cup?

Fromm: No, I haven't been to a World Cup yet. I'd rather go there after the World Cup because I'm very excited to see the structural and social changes in the country. Next week I will be giving an online lecture at the German school in Doha. Let's see how the young people there look forward to the World Cup.